1. Was the north siding ("old schoolhouse track") east of the Patchogue station and the Fence track (because it was next to the fence) used as a coach layover storage track for the morning commute?
Emery's SUNY map
of Patchogue indicates both the North siding and the fence tracks as
"coach lay-up." South of the tracks and east of S. Ocean
Avenue (about the parking lot for the
Also, the #1 track
used to be an express track, with a high platform to unload express.
This track extended all the way east past the Knickerbocker Ice Co.,
The "Scoot" would also layup on the north siding and/or the Fence track.
2. When was the water tank razed? The water columns were removed in 1951from Patchogue, why? Apparently the steam engines were serviced elsewhere after 1951. They no longer needed water plugs in Patchogue?
According to Emery's SUNY map of Patchogue, the water tank came down in 1950. this note appears to be added later. I think it's wrong. Weber took the shots at Patchogue in the late 1940s because the tank was to be removed. I think the tank came down in either 1947 or 1949.
I believe that
steamers were no longer run regular on the Montauk line after that time.
There was a water column in
3. The engine house is gone in the 1920s. Why? Were engines stored off the turntable for the morning commute?
Engines were stored on the engine lay-up track south of the turntable such as E6s 4-4-2 for example.
To my knowledge service was performed on the North siding in all weather. Any major work locomotive would be sent to Morris Park. This would also create a job for an engine crew run lite to PD with replacement locomotive and return with locomotive in need of inspection or repair. Good jobs as you were paid eight hours and many times done in half that time.
4. What kind of freight traffic was handled in Patchogue in terms of numbers of trains per day/week?
was handled by the Montauk freight runs, I believe also there was a
Patchogue freight run for some time. In general freight was handled in
among passenger traffic. Some times a Southside extra may work thru if
needed. Such as a potato extra when
5. Any unusual freights: ducks, potatoes, etc?
Potato extras in the previous question. I do not recall any "Duck Extras ". Need an older timer then me to recall that. I know we ran thru Duck farms around Center Moriches as to how they were shipped I have no idea.
6. Were steam 0-8-0 assigned to Patchogue, or did the road engines work the yard and the sidings?
Road engines did the switching. Out east, only Riverhead (and maybe Speonk) had a regular switcher assigned. I have NEVER seen photos of any 0-8-0 C51 switchers at Patchogue.
From what I can determine from train orders and messages (copies of which I e-mailed you) only H10s and H6sb consolidations were used in freights passing through Patchogue.
7. Was the turntable in use until steam end in 1955? Or did they use diesels, or run east 20 miles out to Speonk to use the wye?
Turntable was out in early 50's. Diesels did most of the work after that, and they did a run around the train and pulled short hood first westbound. Only the C liners were wyed at Speonk.
The turntable was
probably out of use when Diesels came into the picture. No need to turn
locomotive, pull into school house siding, cut train off, back thru the
next track to other end of train, couple up, brake test ready to go
West. Then of course the Budd cars came and all you did was change ends
and you were ready to go. Same situation with Push-Pull trains
The turntable pit
was filled in in 1957. Don't know when the table was actually
When were the water tank, scales, freight houses, sidings, coal
Water tank - c.
9. What businesses and industries received car loads or LCL from the LIRR?
Bailey & Sons.
(all sidings removed: 1950)
10. What would the typical mix of cars look like, blocked reefers, all coal drag, etc. and what was the average number of cars in a freight that arrived?
Always mixed freight, 25-35 cars. Judging from the freight reports I copied for you, some of those trains handled just under 50 cars.
I see the Lace Mill has a siding for a coal trestle and a
shipping/receiving siding at 90 degrees to the main crossing over
Only operations I
would see that would be a problem was the flaging of traffic on
12. Describe the "Ringhouse" track?
The first siding south of the main. 39-car capacity. Named after a LIRR Foreman. Branched off the main west of river Ave., opposite Underwood Fuel Co. and extended eastward connecting to the main just west of the REA house, directly in front of location of water tank.
From North to South:
House track (led to coal trestle)
13. Were there named/numbered scheduled freights?
Locals were designated with an "L" prefix, and city freights had a "MA" for Metropolitan Area.
MA 13 or the Swamp Job
|From my LIRR 1919 CR4:
Elmhurst Coal Co.
E. R. Durkee & Co.
Great Neck Junction:
Queensboro Lumber Co.
Heinrich Francke Sohne & Co.
H. K. Lines
Concrete Products Co.
Nathan Manufacturing Co.
Bayside Coal & Supply Co.
Gregory Coal and Lumber Co.
From my 1958 Bob Emery maps:
Knickerbocker Ice Co.
E. R. Durkee Co.
Corona Fuel Co.
Con Edison Co. Warehouses and Pole Yard
American Hospital supply Co.
County Fuel Co.
Marben Lumber & Flooring Co.
C. H. Hawley Coal Co.
Queensborough Lumber Co.
Gregory Coal & Lumber Co.
Great Neck Lumber Co.
North Shore Mason’s Supply Co.
Port Fuel Co.
Port Washington Lumber Co.
Donald D.Wyeing (Bldg Materials)
In 1960 I owned the MA 13 or the Swamp Job as it was called, because of it's doing switching in Corona Meadows Yard. This was the last remnant of the Whitestone Branch and it serviced a scrap dealer as well as Empire Millwork and a company that took covered hoppers of plastic pellets.
A team yard also
served several customers and off #1 main, Con Edison had a yard where flat
cars laden with poles were taken. On the south side, where Shea is today,
A&P had a bakery where Jane Parker baked goods where made.
The MA13 shoved out of Yard A up the Westbound Montauk Cutoff as far as the Mainline Cutoff and then reversed down through “F”, Harold and on to “WIN” Winfield team yard was switched and then on to the branch.
I don’t remember the name of the consignee, but it was always referred to as “Durkee’s old siding”. This siding was double ended near old Elmhurst station. Hand thrown cross-over switches, known as United Nation Cross-overs got us into Corona Yard. At the time, the remnants of the former United Nations station was laying there in derelict form.
A coal siding
was served off #1 at Elmhurst on our way back west.
I worked the 13
again a few years later (1964) when MA Territory was extended to Port
Wash. The team yard at Bayside took a box car of doo-dads for someone who
ran a flea-market or something like that.
Thanks to Dave Keller for the siding info and to JJ Earl for the narrative.
Fresh Pond Freight Moves: 1960's-1980's
Central and later Conrail, there were no more through freights to Bay
Ridge. Floating operations at Bay Ridge ended with the PC merger. When
Conrail was formed, that was the end of all floating and all interchange
were dropped on one of the leads west of
Cars dropped west of Fremont were pulled down the east leg and switched in the east yard.
Cars for Holban and Yard A were left in the west yard with trains for Holban pulling out through Pond. Trains for Yard A shoved out and reversed at Pond’s interlocking.
Cars for Fresh Pond and Bushwick were also stored in the east yard. Trains for PC/CR were made up in the west yard and pulled upstairs when they were ready to put off-line.
J. J. Earl
"...I seem to remember back in the early sixties that the Baker
siding held two cars, while only one could be worked. I owned the last
From 1988 to 1995, I was conductor on YFD 201 at Holban and several times during that time there was talk of Continental Bakers rebuilding that siding and getting FIVE cars a day. That would have meant several switches during the course of the day. I think the real reason that it never happened because the Powers that Be did not want to have a switch and possible de-railments of other traffic interfering with the then new Hillside Yard..." J. J. Earl
Similarly, the 1905-06 map shows the siding for
Shults (Shultz?) Bakery at the same location, with said siding branching
off the southernmost track which, according to Emery, was installed in
Spur trackage along 30 St. at Borden Ave. in Queens
I've been away too long.
Having owned the Kearny in 1970 I hope that I can answer most of these questions.
FIRST: Domino Sugar was at what would become News Point at the junction of Newtown Creek and the East River. The "Sugar House" was serviced by the B.E.D.T. who floated upriver, engine and all, from Kent Ave.
SECOND: I don't know of an explosion at Domino, but there was one at the Chickle plant in Degnon Terminal.
Kearny was switched by Alco S-1s. Larger engines were not permitted because of clearances and tight curves.
The track being discussed here was accessed from the Eastbound Montauk Cutoff through a facing point switch. This made it necessary for the crew to shove from Yard A with up to fifteen cars while taking a block on the track as they switched. Block or no block, an extra brakeman was employed as a flagman.
Crossings all had to be flagged by the conductor as the move crossed Review Ave. Several customers were between Review and Borden and they could not be placed until the customers across Borden Ave and 30th St were placed.
A requirement for the conductor was to be wearing running shoes and carrying a pocket full of fusees.
Shoving across Borden Ave was up grade and with three cars for Thyphin Steel. one or two for Hiram Walker, and maybe one for Bushwick Steel beyond Walker, stopping meant stalling on the crossing.
Light the fusee, signal the crew to shove ahead when no trafic was coming and RUN LIKE HELL to the opposite side of the street to flag westbound traffic.
Thyphin took three cars inside the building. These were usually set out into one of the sidings that led off the lead to Thyphin while we went through the building to place Bushwick at 31st Street and Walker, between the streets.
Thyphin cars were then picked up and placed inside the building. Sometimes an extra car or two was placed alongside the street and across the street from the Thyphin Building.
I first took the job in the fall of '69 and, as said previously, we sometimes placed fifteen or more cars.
A year later, in a matter of weeks, the number of cars dwindled down to such a point that one night we went into Kearny light (engine only) and pulled out one car. It seemed like a conspiracy on the part of the company that such a busy job was suddenly not getting any freight.
I saw the writing on the wall and took another job on the next bid sheet.
The notice right after that stated that the job was abolished.
Just when , or if, the switch was pulled out, I do not know.
driving up the hill off Liberty Ave. at 184th Street into
Holban yard these days would hardly think that Holban was once the main
hub for freight on Long Island. Today it is a parking lot for employees in
the Hillside facility.
I retired in 1995, the “yard” consisted of six tracks. One track held
forty stone cars and one track had to remain clear so that moves could be
made from one end of the yard to the other. That left four tracks for any
other cars that might come our way for the engineering Dept.
was not always this easy.
the late fifties and through the seventies the yard was a sorting place,
or marshaling yard for all freight destined for east of Jamaica.
the day, sixty car hauler freights came in from Yard A and set their cars
of onto Holban Hump.
trains came in through Jamaica and Hillside to set their cars off onto one
of nine hump tracks. It was impossible for the crew to relay hand signs
(no radios) to the engine crew as the train traveled east on Hollis lead
to clear the switch leading to the hump. When the switch was clear the
conductor “pulled the air” on the hack. When air came back up, the
engine crew started to shove west. The first train in the day would shove
right to the hump, stopping on the bridge over Liberty Ave., where the
conductor pulled the air once more.
trains would of course stop their trains to clear the adjacent track.
ten thirty at night, the hump tracks were full of freight and the hump
crew was ready to “Roll’em” as the conductor would call out in a
rather loud and boisterous voice “ON THE HUMP”. This was after one of
the brakeman would walk the length of each line of cars and bleed the air
from each car. He would close the angle cock on the fifth or sixth care
from the east end so that air could be used to help the engineer better
control the brake. If this was not done, it was very possible for the
weight of the line of cars to pull the whole drag, engine and all, over
the hump and into the yard. Hopefully the conductor realized what was
happening and was able to alert the crew to run down and line the yard for
a clear alley (track).
this time, Holban Yard had twenty-six tracks to make up trains and a
double end “runaround” track where hacks were stored.
conductor controlled the move from the hump by means of a signal that he
operated from a shanty on top of the hump. The signal was back far enough
for the engine crew to follow the command. The signals were position type
with three vertical shove ahead, three diagonal back up, and three
horizontal meant stop.
list of riders was kept by the conductor to record the responsibility of
each rider to ascertain they were doing their job properly. Any damage to
a car was listed by who rode the car off the hump.
night, I looked at the list and wondered why I was taking many more rides
then the other men. A little later on as I was walking, lantern under my
arm, from riding a car safely into a track, I noticed two brakeman were
standing and talking while bobbing their lanterns up and down. They told
me that they were doing that so it would appear from up on the hump that
they were walking back. A lot of the brakeman were always getting out of
the way to let the other guy go first.
switch tenders and five brakemen were employed to cut the freight all into
the proper tracks for the morning trains.
the cars on the hump were all rolled by 2:00am when we were free to relax
for a while. Many of the crew liked to play cards; I would rather take a
night when I was a switch tender, I had made myself a bunk in the switch
tender shanty. This bunk was only about a foot wide, but if I didn’t
move around while I slept, I’d be all right. It was bitter cold that
night and the fire in the pot-belly was going dim. Before I lay down, I
climbed onto a coal hopper in the yard to acquisition some fuel.
didn’t know about kettle coal at the time. It was a very soft and oily
coal. Before I knew it, I had a roaring fire in the little pot-belly and I
went right to sleep. About a half hour later, I woke up in a sweat. The
pot-belly was glowing red--the stove pipe was glowing red—I grabbed my
jacket and ran out the door and when I looked back—the metal stack on
the glowing red roof was glowing red. I learned a lot about kettle coal
that night. I learned that you could start it with a match.
to say, the crew got a good laugh at my expense that night.
here we are halfway through the night so I think I’ll tie-up now if the
card game is over so I can sleep on the table.
the shanty that I wrote about last month did not burn down and the rest of
the boys were playing cards in the crew room so I didn’t get any
shut-eye that night.
wasn’t long before the “Night Freight” was reported with sixty cars.
The night freight was officially the MA-22; MA was short for Metropolitan
area stretched from Long Island City to Holban and on the Montauk to
Valley. Any job with the MA prefix could only work these west end jobs.
Outside of those limits, freight was worked with the “L” prefix.
conductor on the MA 22 rode the hack to the hump where he “pulled the
air” so that the hack was on the downward side of the hump. The hump
engine was waiting in the track alongside of the track where the train
came in and the brakeman would uncouple the hack and bleed the air
allowing the car to coast downhill and when it was clear of the switch
ahead, the engine followed it down and coupled to it and took it back up
the hump to put on the rear, or east end of the westbound train waiting
for the ‘22’ to run them back to Yard A.
clarify these moves let me explain the layout of the yard. The hump had
nine tracks that curved around the Hollis (east end) to the Liberty Ave.
bridge at the top of the hump. Tracks three through nine were used for
placing inbound trains. The first train of the day shoved their train onto
number nine taking the rear car all the way to the bridge. Three to eight
were filled up as the day went on. Track two remained clear so that moves
being made between Holban and Hillside had a clear track to move through.
Track one was a single end track that was used for the storage of cars
that would be used occasionally, such as snow fighting equipment and cars
slated for scrap.
new train was rolled much like the previous lines of cars and soon they
would finish. By that time, the L-2 was reported. They brought more carts
from Yard A or Fresh Pond, but their primary job was to pick up
refrigerator cars (reefers) to add to their own meat cars. In switching
the hump, many reefers were sent along to be picked up later. The L-42
then proceeded to deliver to several meat houses along the main line as
far as Mineola and back.
about 6:00am, the hump crew was just finished (many times they were not
and worked into overtime). At that time, an engine and crew were on the
hump with about five or six hacks. This was the Hillside job waiting for a
chance to go down through the yard to St. Albans end of the yard. (Since
the yard ran between HOLlis and st.alBANs, the yard was named--well--look
Hillside job coupled the rear of freights for the morning and added the
proper cabin cars (PRR designation) to the right trains. Mostly, cars
switched at the St. Albans end were let go on the fly. In 1960 a young
conductor on the Hillside job let fly for the far end of the yard with one
off the brand new steel hacks when he was horrified to see the cars in the
track next to the track he was aiming at were rolling back and the new
hack received a long gash in its brand new side.
to say, the trainmaster was furious; however the hack lasted another forty
years and so did the young conductor.
tell you more about Hillside next time.
It's not just a Job it's an
Just a quick JJ story: We were flagging fresh pond road on the Lower Montauk,
as they were rebuilding an overpass. This was the summer of 1986.
He had just told Bliss it was OK to let an eastbound freight through, he would have the workers out of the way. Then a workers truck slid down the embankment and fouled the eastbound track.
He had all of us, flagmen and workers lift the front of the truck and get it out of the way, just seconds before the eastbound came through. Then he took a bandana out of his back pocket, wiped his brow and said, "it's not just a job its an adventure".
Yes, I know the Army was using that slogan at the time, but it was still funny.