RS3 #1552 Car #2959 Scoot Greenport, NY 4/1977 (Keller)

The Long  Island Rail Road 
"Scoots" and Shuttles

“Neither rain, nor snow, nor gloom of night kept this train from making its appointed back-and-forth runs throughout the day.”

Once shuttle service began in the early 1970s between Hicksville and Ronkonkoma using push-pull service, the unofficially-named “Greenport Scoot” ran a shuttle from Ronkonkoma to Greenport Monday to Friday only. It consisted of several cars pulled by one engine and operated in lieu of Jamaica to Greenport train 204 (eastbound) and Greenport to Jamaica train 211 (westbound).

Here's a 2-car train of steam cars is laying up westbound at Greenport station behind Alco RS1 #463 awaiting its departure time in August, 1972. This was NOT a shuttle train, but the actual Jamaica to Greenport and return series of trains mentioned above. 

If you like a "low-speed" ride east of Riverhead, then you'd have loved a ride I took on train #204/#211 out to Greenport and back in the hot, sweltering days of August, 1972.  

Two "ping-pong" cars pulled behind an ALCO RS1.  No air conditioning.  Front doors, rear doors and vestibule doors wide-open.  Windows open.  Anything to suck in a breeze.  Wonderful feeling as you sweated into a wet mass, then had dust and dirt blow in on you from the trackside potato fields, giving you and the seats and everything else inside the car a nice coating.

Add to that, the coup de gras:  the conductor sitting in the last bench seat of the rear car . . .. smoking a cigar and spitting on the floor between his legs every few puffs. Ahh . . . . Main Line railroading at its best!  Dave Keller  

Train service used to be substantial on these trains as can be evidenced by the photos below: 

LIRR G5s #31 Train #204 Medford 04/1940 
Thomas R. Bayles photo, Dave Keller archive

LIRR G5s #49 Train #211 east of Medford 1940
Albert Bayles photo, Dave Keller archive

But, in later years it was simply a 2-car train east in the morning and west in the afternoon. I mention that the “Scoot” was “unofficially-named” because it wasn’t indicated as such on timetables of the time and the OFFICIAL “Greenport Scoot” ran a shuttle between Greenport and Eastport over the Manorville-Eastport branch back in the early days of LIRR service. But everybody referred to it as the “Scoot” or the “Greenport Scoot” just as they did the shuttle train that ran for years between Patchogue and Babylon on the Montauk branch. It, too, was always known as “The Scoot.”

The “Greenport Scoot” train would lay up in Ronkonkoma yard over the weekend and run east again on Monday morning.  As ridership declined, the “Scoot” was relegated to one locomotive and one passenger car. At that time, the train would usually lay up at the end of the Ronkonkoma wye. On occasion, leased locomotives pulled the “Scoot’s” one-car train.

LIRR #461 Train #202 "Scoot" eastbound at Riverhead Station 8/27/1973   Archive: Dave Keller

RS1 #461 pulls one-car train #211 westbound as it approaches the station at Medford, NY on August 27, 1973.  This train, unofficially referred to in more recent years as the "Greenport Scoot," ran as a shuttle between Ronkonkoma and Greenport. The eastbound portion was train #202 and the westbound portion was train #211. Before it ran as a shuttle, train #211 operated westbound from Greenport straight in to Jamaica.  The eastbound portion was train #204 which was eliminated when shuttle service began.  In this image note the badly weathered platform lamp posts.  The one at right nearest the camera has the station name vertically stenciled on it.  At the left is old ballast along the former right-of-way of the passing siding which had been removed ten years earlier.  (George Povall collection, Dave Keller archive)   

Leased Precision National GP10 locomotive #980 is coupled to the one-car Greenport "Scoot" and is laying up eastbound in front of the crew shanty in Ronkonkoma yard on Friday, November 26, 1976. This shuttle would run between Ronkonkoma and Greenport as eastbound train #202 and westbound train #211 on weekdays only. Judging by the lighting, #211 has just made its return trip from Greenport and is laying up in the yard until ready to go back east again on Monday morning. At times, this one-car train would lay up on the wye tail north of the main yard. William Madden photo, Dave Keller archive  

Ridership must’ve picked up a bit by the mid-late 1980s, because the “Scoot” then consisted of a push-pull train of MP15ac locomotive on the powered end (east end of train) and a FA cab-control unit on the west end, with two P72 rebuilt MU cars sandwiched between. THIS “Scoot” resembles the K-Line “Greenport Scoot” train set that was marketed some years back.

Here the one car “Greenport Scoot” has arrived at the eastern-most end of the Ronkonkoma platform while the westbound push-pull shuttle from Hicksville awaits.

Greenport Scoot with LIRR P72 #2959 "sealed end" coach from Greenport.  View W 8/01/1976
Photo/Archive: Tim Darnell

The “Greenport Scoot” would lay up at the eastern-most end of the Ronkonkoma platform while awaiting the eastbound shuttle from Hicksville. Sometimes, they would come off the wye, through the yard and approach the already-arrived eastbound shuttle sitting at the platform.

It was interesting to find two trains on the same main, nearly touching. Should you have any question as to how that was handled by the block operator on duty, this info was provided by retired LIRR Transportation Manager, Robert Myers:  

"The Manual Block signal that controls the block from KO to YA is located east of Knickerbocker Avenue, even to this day...the station technically falls within yard limits thus the sometimes rear end connection or the Scoot sitting across from where the (modern day) MU pulls in is allowed to occur as the station in not located in a block."

Riders would get off the Hicksville shuttle and walk forward (eastward) the short distance to the rear vestibule to board the “Greenport Scoot.” The “Scoot” would head off east and the shuttle would return to Hicksville. Info: Dave Keller

Leased Precision National GP10 locomotive #980 is coupled to the one-car eastbound Greenport "Scoot" (train #202) and is taking on passengers from the eastbound Hicksville shuttle.  View W 03/30/1977 (William Madden Photo-Dave Keller Archive)

Greenport - Bridgehampton Scoot

Ticket from Bellport to Jamesport - 9/19/1896  Collection: Brad Phillips

The rider, from Bellport (Montauk Branch), takes the eastbound Montauk, Amagansett or Speonk train and gets off at Eastport. At Eastport, the rider waits for the "Greenport Scoot" heading westbound back up to Manorville via the Manorville branch, then eastbound as the "Scoot" takes the east leg of the wye to the Main Line and out to Greenport, making the stop at Jamesport.

Easthampton to Sag Harbor would be westbound then eastbound after a connection was made at Bridgehampton:
1.  The Scoot went from Greenport to Sag Harbor and return.  Easthampton did not fall within that route.
2.  The rider had to catch a westbound train at Easthampton, get off at the next stop (Bridgehampton) then catch
     either the "Scoot" or the shuttle eastbound to Sag Harbor when either made the station stop at Bridgehampton. Info: Dave Keller

Ticket from Eastport to Riverhead - 08/10/1896 Collection: Brad Phillips

Greenport - Bridgehampton Scoot History

Sag Harbor Branch was the original name of the connection between Manorville and Eastport.  Once the LIRR acquired the SSRR and connected from Patchogue to Eastport, then later extending the Montauk branch beyond Bridgehampton, it became known as the Manorville branch and the Sag Harbor branch was the spur from Bridgehampton to Sag Harbor.

The use of the "Scoot" in round-the-horn service was the reason for the east leg of the wye being installed at Manorville, allowing trains (freights included) westbound from Greenport to change direction and head eastbound towards Eastport and points east, and vice-versa for return trips.  As you can see from the attached Emery maps, the east leg of the wye had no station platform for boarding/offloading passengers AND the track was quite a distance from the station stop/ depot.   Research: Dave Keller

D52a #95 4-4-0 view SW at Bridgehampton Station. A two coach shuttle train between Sag Harbor and Greenport, once a day in 1880's. Archive: MTA/LIRR

Emery map 1934 Manorville - MP65 
to Lanes Rd. Archive: Dave Keller

Emery map 1929 Manorville - Lanes Rd. to east leg of wye Archive: Dave Keller

Manorville Station rear view facing westbound 6/1934 Archive: Dave Keller

I believe the Scoot, or a freight, with loco on the west end headed westbound, entered the east leg of the wye, cleared the switch at the wye throat and backed into the station area, where a curved platform was located on the south side of the depot.  Passengers boarded/offloaded and the train, with loco still on the head end but now facing eastbound, headed towards Eastport and points east. 

Zoom view of 9/27/06 photo showing the station sign says "Manor".  It wasn't changed to Manorville until 1907. (Weber - Keller)

If the east leg of the wye was not in place, the train would have to pass the station AND block signal westbound, make a reverse move, and back onto the spur.  With no place to run the engine around the train, it would have to be pushed all the way to Eastport and beyond . . . not a feasible thing to do for visibility/ safety sake.

The Scoot serviced those customers with an around-the-horn type of run between Greenport and Bridgehampton via Manorville and Eastport, with a connection at Bridgehampton with the shuttle to Sag Harbor.  Also, passengers could get off from eastbound Greenport trains and await the eastbound Montauk train which made the Manorville stop, picking up passengers headed for the South Shore, but I can't see much of that happening because all they needed to do was to board the Montauk train coming through there.

So I believe, ridership along that branch was affected by the end of "Scoot" service sometime in the late 1920's-early 1930's.  Not sure when the "Scoot" stopped running.  Research Dave Keller

So, let's back-step a bit with dating:  The fact that the Manorville depot was razed in June, 1941, tells me that the agency closed some years prior to that and the depot remained abandoned for some time afterwards, as was the typical procedure on the LIRR at that time.  So, let's say that the agency closed sometime in the mid-late 1930s, that meant ridership dwindled prior to that to cause the agency to be closed, so I'm thinking that Manorville, as a functioning, manned, station stop wasn't needed as far back as then.  

Most Montauk trains at the time were being routed via the Central branch between B Tower and Babylon. Finally, the spur to Eastport was taken out of service on December 27, 1949.

I guess the LIRR just felt they had two branches connecting the Main Line with the south shore (Montauk/Springfield branch at Hillside and Central branch between "B" tower and Babylon) and didn't need to maintain yet another.  The war was over (1945) and Camp Upton closed for good, so circular routing of trains to and from the camp was no longer necessary and nobody was anticipating a third world war that would require the camp to be opened for a third time.

Again, this is all conjecture on my part, based upon dates of events and upon prior LIRR actions.  

A veteran engineer told me the RR was making a big issue about how much scrap $ they would get for the rails they tore up. They were quick to tear up the line. Ridership ended many years before the branch was shut down.

First, Manorville was (and until recent years, still is) out in the boondocks. There was nothing there that warranted a station stop, except for people making a connection to the south shore. Dave Keller  

Babylon-Patchogue -  Scoot

SOCONY map 1935 - Montauk Branch Babylon-Patchogue
 

PRR leased gar car #4670 at  Morris Park Transfer Table 1935 Archive: Dave Keller

More on LIRR Gas Cars

PATCHOGUE SCOOT SERVICE

It's possible that line (Emery Scoot data above) reads "__, 1957-9, 1967." 1957 could very well have been the start of RDCs in Patchogue Scoot service. For the 2 years prior to that, they were run all over. I have images shot at Mineola, Hicksville, Ronkonkoma, Riverhead, Greenport, Oyster Bay, Southampton and Patchogue, but not in Scoot service. Also fan trips in 1956 and early 1947. That was about the year I rode in the cab of an RDC to Babylon. 

It appears that, in September, 1967, the cars ended Scoot service and were planned to be used elsewhere. The following month, on 10/18/67 the cars operating as train #204 (Greenport-bound) hit a Lizza dump truck at the Blue Point Road crossing just east of Holtsville station. The fireman was operating the car as his practice for becoming an engineer, and the veteran engineer, seeing what was about to happen, responded immediately and flung the fireman out the open side door, whereupon the engineer took the brunt of the hit and was squashed. He was due to retire. The fireman survived. See my anecdote regarding Patsy Molese and the Budd Car.

After the wreck, both cars were taken out of service. The damaged car (RDC 1 #3101) was towed to Ronkonkoma wye (see attached shot at the end of the wye) and then on to Morris Park Shops and later scrapped. The non-damaged car (RDC2 - #3121) was traded to the B&O Railroad for their closed-end observation car "Nappannee" which was used in LIRR parlor service in the early 1970s. (See 2nd attached image of RDC 2 "white-lined" and on its way to the B&O in Jersey City, NJ in July, 1968)

The "Nappanee" was acquired by the LIRR from the B&O in October, 1968, per Jack Deasy's LIRR Parlor Car site. The "Nappanee" was renamed "Amagansett."  Research: Dave Keller

RDC1-2 Babylon Tower 1955

PUSH-PULL TRAINS

May 25, 1971 LIRR places first push-pull train in service on diesel lines; equipment consists of 44 former MP72 MU cars converted to T72 trailers with 6 converted Alco FA or EMD F units as control cabs on rear ends; cab units are unpowered and merely provide control cabs and head-end generators for lighting and heat. (PRR Keystone, Trains, MTA)

The first run of a Push-Pull Train on the Montauk Branch in Passenger Service was on May 27th, 1971 with FA #601, 8 coaches and a C420 (L-2) on Train #66.  The first train of a push-pull consist was comprised of ONLY ex-T72 cars, since they were easier to modify and did not need their motors to be removed as they didn't have any.

RS3's started working the Push-Pull trains in the Summer of 1971 as well as the C420 L-1's.  Early on in the 1971 transition, the FA (PC-6) units were on the EAST end of the train and the RS3s on the WEST end of the train, long-nose forward.  On the Main line, at Ronkonkoma, this EAST end arrangement was also utilized. 

At this time the FA's was not used as a Cab Control Car, therefore the engines would run around the train.  After operating in this manner for a short period of time, in late June 1971, the FA units were moved to the west end of the trains for servicing reasons, and they remained there until withdrawn from service and removed from the property.

Delivered GP38-2 (1976-77) did not have head end power to supply passenger consists and only some MP15AC (3/1977) engines were equipped. Utilizing FA control cabs provided both class of engines with this requirement.   FA’s had their traction motors removed and the ALCO 244 prime mover was used as Head End Power (HEP) for supply to the P72’s. The prime mover on the FA’s were kept at notch 4. The last units that had their stems generators used were the C420’s. 

FA's supplied 650v DC HEP for PT-72 and PT-75 cars to simulate 3rd rail for converted MU's with motor alternators. Steam heat on the P72's (2900's) was gone by early 1979, converted cars temporarily stenciled "electric heat" in black lettering next to the doors.  FA unit conversions provided the engine crew the front-end protection that they wanted along with the 650V DC power from the converted prime mover hence their nicknames "Power Packs". These engines were rebuilt by General Electric in North Bergen NJ to provide constant 650V hotel power and cab controls only, thus they had no traction motors.  Mike Boland

The Zip Cars were converted to Push-Pull Service early to mid-1972. 
Balance of MP Motor Trailers and Head End Cab started in 1973 and ended in 1980.
Bar-Generators were converted late 1975-Early 1976.   Info: Bob Bender
 

LIRR Instruction Booklet for Push-Pull Trains  August 1971

PUSH-PULL TRAIN OPERATION
A train will consist of a standard diesel locomotive on one end, a power car on the other end and about six converted 2800 series cars in between. The standard locomotive used will be one of our regular passenger locomotives. The power car is a converted ALCO locomotive. They will supply 600 volt power for heat, light and air conditioning on the 2800 Series cars. The power car will also have a push-pull control station cab to operate the train in the opposite direction.

LOCOMOTIVES
Any of our standard passenger locomotives can be used in this service. There will be a slight modification of passenger locomotives before they are used. The signal system will have an electric buzzer in addition to the standard air signal. The car brake system will be essentially the same. The double heading cock will be in the single locomotive position. The double heading cock on the power car must be set for single locomotives and not double headed.

POWER CARS
There will be a total of six power cars in operation. These power cars are from converted ALCO freight locomotives. The diesel engines and main generators will be operated at constant speed/voltage (650 volts DC). This DC power will be train lined into the 2800 series cars. The purpose of the power cars is to supply 600 volt power to operate the heat, air-conditioning, lights and all auxiliaries on the cars. The power car cab will also contain a push-pull station. The push-pull station will be train lined through the 2800 Series cars by way of a new 27 point jumper to the locomotive on the other end of the train. The diesel engine in the power car will not supply any of the traction power for the train. This will only supply power to operate the features in the 2800 Series cars.

2800 SERIES CARS
There is a total of 44 cars in this service. They will be taken out of MU service for this conversion. These cars have a standard 600 volt electrical system. All of the electrical system will be maintained as is. The contact shoes and shoe beam will be removed because the power for these cars will now come from the power car. A 27 point jumper will pass through each of these cars to carry the push-pull feature from the power car to the locomotive. The air door system on these cars will still be in operation. The number of 2800 Series cars that can operate in any train will vary up to a maximum of 8 cars. Each of the odd-numbered cars will be equipped with a lavatory. These cars are all air-conditioned. The cars will have the old 4 point jumper for the 600 volt positive line. The cars will also have a new pair of jumpers for the 600 volt negative line. The negative line is necessary because these trains will operate in territory where the rails do not have traction bonds.

SPECIAL CAUTIONS
Since push-pull trains operate in non-electrified areas where rails are not bonded for 650 volt return, the entire 650 volt circuit is self-contained - the return flow of current is provided through the train itself to the power unit. That is what the new 1-point jumpers are for. Modification of the CT-290 Electrical Operating Instructions covers rules for handling jumpers in push-pull, but here are these reminders: - Be sure there are two 4-point and two 1-point jumpers connected between cars and between power unit and adjoining car. If one jumper is missing, all four should at that point be disconnected.
Be absolutely certain there is no electrical load on any 4-point of 1-point jumpers before pulling or inserting it. Be certain the isolation switch on the back wall of the power unit cab is in the idle, or shut-down position so the generator is not putting current into the line.

Another interesting observation is that this document had a hand-drawn example train on its heading with these car and locomotive numbers left to right: 1556(RS3); 2801, 2802, 2843, 2844 and PC-6. (original power cab class). The original six FA2 power cabs (later nicknamed "Power Packs") were 601 to 606. Archive: RMLI

The original push-pull concept was a success and would be used for around 30 years in LIRR service from 1971 to 2000. More former MU cars and other locomotives would be later converted over time for train service. Material courtesy of  Mike McEnaney

PNC #1702 WB Great River Shelter Shed 
11/ 1975 Photo/Archive: Art Huneke

BAR GP9 #69 eastbound Connetquot Ave., Great-River
11/1975 Photo/Archive: Art Huneke

Babylon-Patchogue Scoot #74, led by DE30AC 419 splits the signals right on the border of the Villages of West Islip and West Bay Shore. On the right is Babylon’s “hold-out” home signal #60. Other than the Oyster Bay Branch, the segment from Babylon to Y, east of Sayville, is a “251” holdout. The last of the wayside automatic block signals. 5/19/2023  Info/Photo/Archive: Jeff Erlitz

ALCO FA1 control cab #616 is on the west end of westbound push-pull shuttle train #655 making the station stop at Stony Brook, NY, amidst all the summer foliage - 6/5/78.  GP38-2 #260 is on the powered end pushing the shuttle to Huntington.  George E. Votava photo  Dave Keller Archive

All photos and captions below are from the Dave Keller Archive unless noted otherwise

A similar shuttle service was placed into service on the Port Jefferson branch with the arrival of the control cab units and the institution of push-pull trains.  Electrification was completed to Huntington in 1970.  Push-pull shuttle service ran between Port Jefferson and Huntington throughout the day, carrying riders between electrified territory and non-electrified territory.  Here we see ALCO FA2 control cab #603, on push-pull train #604 eastbound at Huntington with C420 #227 on the powered end. (George E. Votava photo- Dave Keller archive)

ALCO FA2 control cab #601 is on the west end of push-pull weekend train #4255, the Ronkonkoma to Hicksville shuttle, shown here at Bethpage, NY – 7/15/1972.  ALCO C420 #207 is on the powered end pushing the train.  This shuttle operated with the beginning of push-pull trains put into service with the arrival of the FA1 and FA2 control cabs.  With the control cab on one end and the powered unit on the other, the train could be pushed in one direction and pulled in the other, without wasting the time it took in running the locomotive around the train and recoupling  it in the opposite direction.  This shuttle ran to meet Main Line-bound riders arriving on electric trains bound for Huntington on the Port Jefferson branch and changing for the shuttle at Hicksville or taking westbound riders from Ronkonkoma and other Main Line stations to Hicksville to connect with the electric train there which originated at Huntington.  The diesel train would arrive on the track across from the electric trains.  This shuttle service ended with the electrification of the  Main Line to Ronkonkoma and the operation of through electric service. (George E. Votava photo- Dave Keller archive)

Note 1:  As for tickets from the "Scoot", that will be difficult to determine:

The only way you'll get a ticket that signified being used on the Scoot would be a ticket that was issued at Patchogue to Babylon or issued at Babylon to Patchogue. All other riders of the Scoot who were traveling further east or west simply changed at Babylon, so a ticket issued at Patchogue with a destination of Jamaica, Flatbush Ave. or Penn Station or vice versa would NOT necessarily be used on the Scoot but also on any Montauk and/or Speonk-bound train as well.

The only way to identify it as a "Scoot" ticket would be for it to be issued at Patchogue to Babylon or Babylon to Patchogue. . . and even THAT isn't conclusive as being used on the Scoot, because a rider COULD have purchased a ticket at Patchogue to Babylon or Babylon to Patchogue and got on a Montauk or Speonk train as well. . . . All Montauk and Speonk trains stopped at Babylon AND Patchogue except for the all-parlor car trains, whose first stop east of Jamaica was Westhampton. Tickets didn't have train numbers on them, so without a train number you could never tell whether it was used on the Scoot or not, unless your PERSONALLY purchased the ticket and PERSONALLY rode the Scoot, in which case it would be YOUR ride on the Scoot, but there's nothing on the ticket to designate it as such other than identifying the ticket collector's punch design and seeing if that collector worked the Scoot that day . . . impossible for anyone to do other than the LIRR who has or had a record of all ticket punch identification designs. How long they kept them after collectors, brakemen, trainmen and conductors retired/left LIRR service is not known to me. Research: Dave Keller